PROOF That Jesus is NOT "The Christ", is NOT "The Messiah"
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In this hub I expose the big secret. I expose the big lie that the Christians have been propagating for the past 2000 years. I prove that the Christian religious leaders are nothing but liars. I prove that Christianity goes beyond myth. I prove that Christianity is a total lie!
Here is the word of God disputing the statements of the Christian religious leaders:
John 8:54-55 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. (KJV)
1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. (KJV)
In the original Greek translation of 1 John 2:22, it says "the liar" (as show below: ο ψευστης), not "a liar" which is wrongfully shown in the KJV.
1Jn 2:22 τις εστιν ο ψευστης ει μη ο αρνουμενος οτι ιησους ουκ εστιν ο χριστος ουτος εστιν ο αντιχριστος ο αρνουμενος τον πατερα και τον υιον (Greek)
Here is the correct English translation of 1Jn 2:22 from the original Greek text:
τις εστιν ο ψευστης
Who is the liar
ει μη ο αρνουμενος οτι
if not the one who denies that
ιησους ουκ εστιν ο χριστος
Jesus is not the Christ
All you proud Christians out there: go check your specific translations of the New Testament. You will not find the correct translation for this verse in there. Why? Because the Christians who did the translating were not about to admit that they were lying to you. They deliberately altered the original Greek translation in order to sell you that Jesus is the Christ.
So here we have the word of God (as Christians like to tell us it is), from the original Greek scripts, telling us that Jesus is NOT the Messiah; Jesus is NOT the Christ!
Who is the liar? Who is the falsifier? The one who is denying the Biblical statement that says that Jesus is not the Messiah.
Is it clearly evident that the Christian liars who translated from the Greek scripts are telling us in this verse that "Jesus IS the Messiah". They are doing exactly what this verse says that "the liar" would do - LIE. They have purposely mistranslated the text with the intent to decieve.
So to all you false Christians out there: You claim you know God, but you DO NOT!
"that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him"
The word of God is telling you that Jesus is NOT the Christ, Jesus is NOT the Messiah. And the LIAR is the one who tells you that Jesus IS the Christ, that Jesus IS the Messiah. Christianity is a total lie!
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Well herein lies the problem, dj. Anybody can claim what they want. But it is ultimately written in black & white that Jesus is not the Christ.
This is not a matter we vote on. It doesn't matter if there are 100 verses that claim Jesus is the Christ, and they outnumber this verse. All it takes is one verse to falsify them.
Why else would that verse be in there?
And why else would the translators CHANGE the verse from the original Greek wording?
What were they trying to hide?
These are the tough questions we ask in a court of law (i.e. Why was the blood wiped off the murder weapon?)
You cannot apply the laws of scientific enquirey to legal evidenciary proof. Though one falsification(?) is raised, the overwhealming evidence is to the contrary.
So, the jury is persuaded, beyond reasonable doubt
Even if there is one jurior who is "agains", does not carry the verdict alone, but the majority.
The whole theme of the Bible is about the saviour, His expected coming, His mission (sacrificial death on the cross for the remission of sin etc..). It therefore stands up to (proper, and honest) scrutiny, to reinforce the Jesus indeed IS th Messiah, the Christ...
The only ones to agree with you would be the Jews, as they still deny Him as THE One.
But if you read Romans, you will see that one day they too will believe.
(You cannot apply the laws of scientific enquirey to legal evidenciary proof.)
But dj, you know very well this has nothing to do with scientific inquiry. This statement is part of the original texts before they were translated. It is IN the original scriptures.
The real question is: Why is it in there? Is it yet another one of the missed passages which should have been changed/altered during the counsel of Nicea in 325 CE? Cause they sure messed up a lot of things which they regretted after the fact.
(So, the jury is persuaded, beyond reasonable doubt)
It sure is. The jury wants to know WHY that verse is in the Bible. The jury wants to know if this is the verse that slipped by undetected after the scriptures were altered at Nicea. The jury is wondering if all the other verses claiming Jesus is Christ, son of God, etc. were altered for the purpose of selling Christianity to masses, and this one was missed and slipped by.
This is not an issue of vote or majority rules. This is a MAJOR issue of inquiry. This verse cannot possibly be in the original scriptures. But it IS!!!!
And more importantly....why didn’t this verse make it into the translations? Why was this verse altered in the translations? This is a case of wiping the blood of the murder weapon. And this is what concerns the jury – deception!
(to reinforce the Jesus indeed IS th Messiah, the Christ...)
And this explanation confirms why the original meaning didn’t make it into the translations. Because it would destroy Christianity. Jesus had to be sold to the masses nomatter what!
(The only ones to agree with you would be the Jews)
No. Any rational human being would look at the fact that blood was wiped off the murder weapon in order to change the true facts. This is called deception. Humans do it whenever they have something to hide, when they have something to sell, when they have to get a certain message across at all costs.
Well, the bird is out of the cage now. The traces of blood missed on the murder weapon confirm the deception.
Sorry fatfist. I cannot disagree more.
I wrote a whole treatise a minute ago, and at a stroke of a key, accidentally lost the lot. So, I am in no mood to rewrite what I wrote.
Let me summarize though.
The same apostle John wrote the Gospel of John with a VERY specific purpose in mind. "That you may know that Jesus IS the Christ" (look it up if you like). And then DENY it in one , almost obscure verse? I don't think so.
All the Apostles died as martyrs for their faith(in Jesus, the Christ), knowing it was a lie! Again, I don't think so.
You have made your choice and you need to enforce that. I understand that. But to go in the face of all the evidence, well, what can I say. I guess you are not seeking truth, in it's own right.
Anyway, here's a link to about as many versions of your (alleged) rogue verse as one can find (all in one place).
Have fun. :)
dj,
You are entitled to disagree. There are thousands of people who live on this planet and disagree with the facts and believe the Earth is a flat pancake.
(The same apostle John wrote the Gospel of John with a VERY specific purpose in mind)
You know of no such purpose. Can you read the minds of supposed dead people? If not, then how can you know their purpose?
The facts are:
1. something was written
2. these writings are contradictory
3. these writings were altered in the counsel of Nicea and others were destroyed or magically went missing
4. this verse sticks out like a sore thumb because it was not translated from Greek to its true blue meaning
5. CONCLUSION: Christianity has a big secret to hide
(All the Apostles died as martyrs for their faith)
So were the 911 hijackers. In fact, a lot more 911 hijackers died than apostles. So in accordance to your popular vote theory, Allah is the one true God. Sorry, but I'm using your faulty logic here and applying it to your scenario so maybe you can understand why your argument holds no water.
(I guess you are not seeking truth, in it's own right)
Truth cannot be sought, searched, summoned, or found. Truth is always proven.
Conversely, a SINGLE contradiction disproves a claim. This is basic logic which YOU partake in every single day of your life. So you cannot deny nor refute this issue of truth I have raised.
Therefore, this single contradiction disproves that Jesus was the Christ. This is objective and not subject to any opinion or vote.
man,
(There is so much wrong with your interpretation of I John 2:22 it is sad. It says who is a liar if not the one (that you) that says Jesus is not the Christ. Yes, you are a liar. You cannot understand the Bible.)
Looks like you came here to prosthelytize rather than read the hub and CHECK THE ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES WHICH WERE WRITTEN IN GREEK!!!!!!!!!
What don't you understand, man?
They don't say the LIE you so purposely wrote: "...if not the one (that you) that says..."
That's the conjured up translation in the false bible you hold so dearly in your hands.
Instead, they correctly say:
"...?? ?? ? ?????????? ???..."
"...if not the one who denies that..."
The word "??????????" means "one who denies". And NOT "that says", like you so conveniently wrote to protect your religion!
You can quote a million quotes from your mythical scriptures. It don't matter. Truth is never resolved by a show of hands or at the ballot box. This hub objectively deals with the truth of what is in the ORIGINAL scriptures, before they were purposely mistranslated to convey a completely different message and propagate a LIE.
All it takes is ONE verse to destroy your religion. And this hub accomplishes that succinctly.
Yikes! HP put question marks for those Greek words.
Anyway, the word in Greek: arnoumenos
Means: one who denies
C'mon people, we all know that bible thumpers are not exemplary scholars...but not knowing what IS in the original scriptures? That's simply ridiculous. You people are not only blind, but LOST too!
How can you possibly live your life with what con artists like Benny Hinn, Pat Robertson, and Billy Graham spoon feed you?
Pick up copies of the original scriptures and read, read, read, like your life depends on it.
I suggest you take your own advice and read, read, read!
You have in your own words cancelled your own interpretation. If the record is unreliable, then so is your version of said verse. :(
I bet you didn't check out the site I gave you. I see their work as far more studious than your own.
Like I said, you have your mind made up, and you seek to justify that. Which you are free to do. (No skin off my nose).
BTW, when did BH, PR and/or BG spoon feed me?? You ASSUME an awful lot.
So, my dear exegesis expert, who IS the REAL Messiah?
(I suggest you take your own advice and read, read, read!)
Yes dj, that's what I said: GO READ THE ORIGINAL GREEK SCRIPTURES. They are all over the internet, so you have no excuse.
Instead you just quote totally UNRELATED material that was conjured up by con artists to protect their cult, AFTER THE FACT!
(You have in your own words cancelled your own interpretation. If the record is unreliable, then so is your version of said verse)
This ain't MY interpretation of anything. It's all there in BLACK & WHITE for you to read. So read read read read read!
The original scripts are the only reliable source for this verse, don't you agree? JUST ANSWER THIS QUESTION DJ!
Using dumb church logic won't get you out of this mess, dj. This IS the Holy Grail. This IS what exposes Christianity as the scam that it is. The only objective reliable record for this verse is the ORIGINAL GREEK SCRIPTURES. And this is what has destroyed your religion and your faith. Otherwise you wouldn't be here for damage control.
You know very well that you cannot rewrite the original scriptures like those million quotes you sent me in the link, which ALL contradict each other btw.
(Like I said, you have your mind made up, and you seek to justify that.)
This nothing to do with minds, me, you, or any bible you can open. This is an objective criterion that is exposed in the original Greek scriptures.
Your case is closed, dj. You have nothing to offer but defensiveness and more links to fabricated/modified verses that even dig a bigger hole for Christianity.
This verse has been troubling Christian apologists for over 1500 years. That's why they kept the original scriptures under lock and key away from public access.
But they made the innocent mistake of allowing them to be copied in DIGITAL form for preservation. They had forgotten what they were trying to hide. Now the digital information age has made this verse easily accessible and all the idiots who let the cat out of the bag are now hitting their heads against the wall day and night!
Go read dj, read the original Greek scriptures. You won't be coming here to argue with your ignorance after that. Educate yourself please.
(who IS the REAL Messiah?)
This is a question you need to ask the Jews. That's one of the reasons Hitler wanted them exterminated.
fatfist....if I have that right. May I ask you a couple questions? What do you believe in? Secondly, why are you so focused on disproving Jesus as the messiah? You seem to have gone through some great lengths, making some pretty bold statements to disprove something that you don't believe in. So what gives? What is your motivation?
dreams,
What do I believe in?
What does belief have to do with the issue at hand? This hub is not about me or you. Beliefs are only subjective opinions. A proven belief becomes a truth.
This hub is objectively about that specific verse in the Bible. It is exposed for what it is. There are no bold statements. If you feel that verse is BOLD, then please take up this issue with the keepers of the original scriptures. They are locked up in a church somewhere in the "holy land".
I won't be surprised in what they tell you. They have told many stories when confronted about this bold verse. From what I understand, they will not discuss this verse anymore. I could be wrong, but you can try talking to them next time you are in the holy land.
(The whole theme of the Bible is about the saviour)
Wow, what an amazing exhibit of intelligence in that statement.
So you're actually saying that if it weren't for the fact that some idiots wrote about Jesus, then Jesus wouldn't exist.
This is the same logic the idiots Lita Sorensen and her boyfriend used to argue for absolute truth. It didn't work for them and it doesn't work for you either.
No wonder you people are deluded zealots!
1 Absolutes are not attainable because they were never Intended to be.The concept of absolutes is intended to be"The Carrot hung before the Donkey so he will continue to plod along and not stop,which is his nature".Absolute Truth is the"Carrot"that keeps us searching.The result is Growth and the evolution of understanding.
TRUTH
"When I was a child
I caught a fleeting glimpse
Out of the corner of my eye
I turned to look but it was gone
I cannot put my finger on it now
The child is grown
The Dream is gone"Pink Floyd
Such is the nature of Absolutes...
2Virtually All religious works were written under pseudonyms as was the custom of the cultures that produced them which leads us to the"fly in the ointment"
3Manuscripts that have been scientifically dated[i did Not say Validated]begin around 40 CE and were written in Greek,Coptic,and Hebrew.All differ in meaning however they are very similar in content.
3 Here's the Crux of the Biscuit.Jesus spoke Ancient Aramaic which Died out then was revived during the 1800's.The nuances of Aramaic are staggering in scope.Scholars suspect that Ancient Aramaic was even More So.
The only thing we can accurately say about the phenomenon called Jesus the Christ is
WTF?
The above comments are submitted with respect and admiration of knowledge on both sides of your on going argument
Dean
cheaptrick,
"Absolutes are not attainable because they were never Intended to be"
Yes! There are NO absolutes! You understand it, why don't others?
"The concept of absolutes"
Bingo! An 'absolute' is a word from a language that embodies a concept, an idea. All words and languages are concepts. ALL concepts are conceived by human brains. NO concepts existed before humans. Therefore, anything claimed to be absolute, is impossible. Even the word 'absolute' is not even absolute!
"All religious works were written under pseudonyms"
Of course, that's why they are all fakes, frauds, lies! They create one lie to cover up another lie. This is the scope of all religion and theology.
"Jesus spoke Ancient Aramaic"
This is the claim stemming from the Jesus Myth. They also claim the supposed disciples spoke Greek & Aramaic.
Thanks for your comment.
In the conanization of the Church it specifically states that the people should be in kept in the dark at all costs. Now you may say that it is only Catholics who have this law, but it is not. It is all religions that come from the one Catholic Law that began all other denominations. KEPT IN THE DARK AT ALL COSTS. Hmmm really does tell you something doesnt it. Liars, they are lying to you and what for? What are they so afraid to tell anyone and what are they keeping from you?
Correct that there are no absolutes because things change all the time and new things are brought out into the light. The very first thing we do is DENY and the GET ANGY when something new is brought up. Is that a learned response and who taught that?
Lady G,
"people should be in kept in the dark at all costs"
Not only that, but they must lie in order to protect the faith delusion. Here is a very disturbing quote from Luther:
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees it must put out of sight, and wish to know nothing but the word of god”.
“What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church...a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them”.
-- Reverend Martin Luther (1483 – 1546) Founder of Protestant Christianity
Once people know that God accepts lies, then the possibilities are endless....
Yes, look at the corruption of the priests of the Catholic Church. All the lies they are telling about the pedophils they harbour. Now they say that they are flatly against Gays----but isn't pedophilia on BOYS by MEN just that? The Catholic Church priests ARE GAY!
Greek doesn't read like English, word ordering doesn't matter. If you read that verse in it's context the translation they put in the Bible makes way more sense. You must contextualize when you translate.
Random,
Of course Greek doesn't read like English. And this is the important point that kills the Bible.
If Greek doesn't read like English, as per your assertion, then:
1) All that is written in the English translations (and all non-Greek translations) of the Bible is pure Bullshit!
2) The English Bible is to be thrown in the garbage.
Do you see how your statement is self-refuting? You can't have it both ways. If Greek can't be translated into English then the Bible is all lies. If Greek can be translated into English, then my logically correct proof stands.
Your assertion has some merit, but not for the "contextual" reason you alluded. Greek has a very axiomatic and rigorous grammar that more readily maps to logic than almost any other language on the planet. This means that Greek has far less logical, semantic, and contextual ambiguities than English. And as such, is easier to assess the true meaning of a sentence in Greek than in English; as long as we map the proper logical predicate formalism into English. This clearly hasn't been done in any English translation of the Bible. And this issue has proven to be yet another grave problem for the Bible.
So you have it backwards, Random. It is without a doubt, magnitudes harder to translate the ambiguous English language into Greek, than the logical Greek languange into English.
And here is a basic example that proves my point:
Please translate the word "the" into Greek. You can't.
Do you know why? Because the ambiguity associated with "the" is impossible to translate not only into Greek, but into many other languages.
Remember: English is a hacked-up, jabbered-up language that was created 1200 years ago by a bunch of lazy illiterate idiots who were more concerned with drinking booze, raping, and pillaging, than they were with proper grammar and logic and reason.
Still walking in the darkness and wilderness! But light is available. Yeshuah loves you regarding you believe in Him or not.
I would like to know what was Jesus crime when He died? Was He guilty or not?
Vladmir,
(But light is available)
Oh yes, now I remember you....you are the one who claimed to be a scientist, right?
Why don't you tell us, Vlad....what is light? Let's see if you know your stuff...
(you believe in Him or not)
Whatever you are proposing is not based on belief. It is based on an explanation. So please, Vlad, tell us.....is this Yeshuah an OBJECT or a CONCEPT??
If it's a concept, then it's nothing!
If it is an object, does it exist?
If it exists, then WHAT natural phenomena can you explain with this object 'Yeshuah'?
If you can't explain anything, then it can't be any more useful than a rock.
(what was Jesus crime when He died? Was He guilty or not?)
Sorry Vlad, but WHO or WHAT is this Jesus you refer to?
Are you referring to the mythical Jesus of the NT, the mythical character whom this hub is based on? If so, then read the NT. The mythical storyline will answer all your questions.
There is no other story about the mythical Jesus other than what is written in the NT and the other 60 or so gospels; of which less than 20 remain. The others were destroyed in order to preserve the current myth of the NT. While the ones that remain claim that Jesus found a lover in Mary Magdalene, and that his mother never believed his claims of holiness/son of god.
Since you can't provide us with any rational explanations, I'll just ask you this: Which story of the gospels do you believe?
Believers are a dime a dozen. They are just lost followers who cannot think for themselves and require con artists to delegate their lives. They cannot even explain any natural phenomena with the object of their beliefs.
Thanks for your comment!
I believe that your so called original document was a misprint. I have researched many translations in which I observed the preservation of meaning in the scriptures. Christianity shall live on, reviving whenever, flourishing at times, and people shall praise the Christ Jesus long after we are gone.
(I believe that your so called original document was a misprint.)
That's not "my" document. It is the original scripture written in Greek.
(I have researched many translations )
Sorry, but we have some confusion here.
First...Any translation is not a reliable source of the original scriptures. I am sure you understand the reasons behind that.
Second....The only reliable source of information regarding the New Testament, can only come from the original scriptures.
Third....If there is any contradiction in the original scriptures, then it is proof that the subject of the contradiction is falsified. In this particular case, Jesus was not The Christ.
Thanks for your post
Hello fatfist
glad to see somebody reading the original greek for themselves. I think if more people read for themselves they would come to their own conclsion that jesus is not the christ. i for one being born a catholic and having many questions the church wouldn't dare try to answer, had to read on my own. I started with a concordance and also noticed that in i john 2;22 the word (ou) was ommited meaning "not" and (esti) means "is". so when properly read it says "jesus is(esti) not(ou)christ. this is only one case among thousands of locations where the translaters deliberately misinterpreted the bible to decieve many.
jaganastasis,
I am happy to hear that you are a thinker. I encourage people like you to go out and do their own research, instead of listening to what I, or anybody else says.
The Protestants have a BIG problem with this hub. They are under the impression that their TRANSLATED Bibles are the "true blue" ones. They haven't the slightest clue that the original NT scriptures were not in English. They don't even know that English is only 1200 years old.
I'm glad to see rational people like you drop by.
Thanks for your post.
Hey fatfist...how are you.
It's an enormous task to take on the faith establishment!
they can not hear you... really... their faith has given them the "good book" - an acurate translation is not the issue, So they have to suspend every contradiction presented, allowing them to see the "goodbook" in the manner that serves their faith... again, the source is not relevant! and when it gets so irrational even for them to hold the contradiction, they claim "prophesy".
Example... the goodbook warns against false prophets thus false prophets become a subset excluded from the "goodbook", so all false prophets are extraneous to them - they are never the false prophets, ever!
When this condition set's in, the book loses its power to illustrate that the prophets they believe in are false, and it is at that point that they are willing to falsify the very book that warns agains this type of human nature. You see, they were looking for someone extraneous, to be evil! Never did they suspect themselves to evil! So how dare you point this out...
Pythagarus,....I am shocked....you finally posted a rational comment in here!!!
(So how dare you point this out... )
Because I am doing a public service for FREE.
If one human reads my hubs and wakes the f*** up, then that is all I need. This is why I always walk around with a smile on my face.....there are people who find value in my hubs. I've received personal emails from people who actually GET the content. Albeit it can take some people 2 years to finally understand the words concept, object, exist, but persistence gets them there. And no, I'm not kidding about the 2 years! These people are not stupid by any stretch of the imagination. They were just conditioned to a limited way of thinking in our deficient educational system.
The rest are still unevolved apes who are nothing but followers, who can't think, who only have trite responses, and need an authority to tell them which concept to worship!
Thanks for the nice comment, Pythagarus.
From now on, I expect similar "coherent" comments from you :-)
..LOL..see? there you go again, making me go ape on you! How is this a nice comment? you missed the point... read it again! here's what you can expect from me:)) pissoff,old lady! (See?) I am either agreeing with you and that is good or you are a dickhead... I told you, your reward is not my servitude:))) but you won't believe me when I tell you that the alternative is to sit in the corner and take meds! and all I wanted was for you to be intelligent:(((see, there it is again!)
PS good post... that is a powerful contradiction you have raised, again!
(see? there you go again, making me go ape on you!)
Ahhhh, now you are speaking my language, pythagarus. Remember when I told you that if you stick around here, you will learn bit by bit each day? We are all apes. At least we don't offend each other with the word 'ape' anymore!
(I am either agreeing with you and that is good or you are a dickhead)
You missed the point of my hubs. I don't care who agrees with me. I want those who DISAGREE with me, and hopefully that includes YOU, to come here and lay waste on my hubs. I want them to rip everything to shreds. Show me exactly what is irrational. I want to "learn" something from these idiots for a change. And if these clowns have an epiphany from our exchange, they might realize that concepts don't exist, and hopefully, wake up from that religiously-induced coma they have been in all their lives!
So now that we have confirmed that "diameter", "circumference", and God forbid,....Pi, don't EXIST,....I want you to rationally explain to me whether a "circle" exists or not.
That's your homework. So go collect your thoughts, and post some coherent explanation. I have given you all the tools your need to answer this simple question.
This simple exercise is a continuation of your therapeutic recovery from obsessing with numerology and dynamic concepts ;-)
...oh! thankyou masta-of-reason!
1. i will use you for my purpose, and when i am done i will spit you out like.... hey, you still on the circle thingy...I moved on to corners and meds! Again. had you not noticed?... lol.
Now, seriously... conjugate with me; I'm ape, you're ape, ... (see?) but here's what you pointed out to me... accuracy=truth (NOT!) accuracy=contradiction! the truth is: whether he is or not the messiah. personally i don't give a raat's ass if he is or not! but you picked up on this contradiction and are now selling it to convert souls... that is good and puts a "a smile on your face" --- disclaimer, I doit too, just that it's easier to see and pick on you when you doit(see?)... So I will be honest with you now... (you have shown so much intelligence!)... I am trying to figure out what it is that I would be willing to "sell you" - that I am not even aware I am doing it! I suspect that am resisting, too, putting a smile on, for no reason at all; not god, not reason, not truth, least of all - good... surely definitely not evil! make sense?
PS there is no 2. (oops)
(but here's what you pointed out to me... accuracy=truth)
No, you are wayyyyyyy off the mark again. Stay on course!
Accuracy & truth are 2 different concepts and have NOTHING to do with each other. I already told you that TRUTH = OPINION. What does this mean?
It means that what is CLAIMED as ‘true’, is always dependent upon a pre-defined CONTEXT, which in logic, is called a “logical system”, or a “system of truth”. This “system” is used for the purposes of RESOLVING what is true, otherwise, no claim of ‘truth’ can be made as it is only an opinion. The system has a foundation of axiomatic rules which DEFINE the system for its specific PURPOSE and USAGE. There are tons of systems of logic: classical, intuitionist, fuzzy, quantum, banking, computer languages, database systems, business rules, etc...and tons more are invented every single day.
Now pay attention, pythagarus,......the Bible, NT or OT, is its very own aggregation of a “system of truth” as defined by the ignorant goat-herding vagabonds of the primitive ages. It lays the axiomatic rules (commandments, God, Jesus, holy spirit, father, son, heaven, hell, evil, etc.) dogmatically for you, just like any other system of logic does. Then it uses these axioms to build other rules, sequences of statements, and story lines, no matter how irrational they are.
(the truth is: whether he is or not the messiah. personally i don't give a raat's ass if he is or not!)
Actually, the TRUTH is.....that Jesus is NOT the Messiah, and this is PROVEN within the axiomatic rules of the New Testament!!!!!!!
Why? Because there is NO truth or proof outside a logical axiomatic system. Nobody can claim that Jesus is not the messiah outside the “confines” of the NT. That Jesus is not the messiah, is PROVEN within the “confines” and axioms of the biblical system of the New Testament.
There is NO claim of TRUTH about Jesus outside the jolly good holy book!
(there is no 2)
Wow, you have turned over a new leaf!
(hey, you still on the circle thingy...I moved on to corners and meds!)
I was wrong.....there is a God.....halleluiah!
...LOL!!! WOW all of this from a greek text that was translated incorrectly! my dear, you are using this for your own personal gain, servitude, mastery, godess, whatever-turns-you-on!
I agreed with you, did I not? Christ! it's like talking to a child who has just learnt how to count and now counts !everyfuckingthing!:)))
For all I know, if the book is not the "truth" (yeah, yeah, it's opinion! whatever.)then I could have written the damn thing, when i was sitting in the corner without my meds! and since I am not very fluent in greek - like not at all - I fucked-up, so crucify-me and get it over and done with already! but don't base your argument on an inaccuracy, from a source which can not be veryfied either. The best you could have done, and you did a fabulous job - was to point at the contradiction... that is the extent of the power of logic, anything else is religion, you APE!
Remember... No Proof - ever - only degrees of certainty. They invented prophesy, you are trying to reinvent bullshit! and pass it on as a cerebral-higher-order.... woopdidoodaa! so you have a reason to smile! good for you... but can you do it with out the reason? Why don't you "logic" that!
Now, enough about you! what is it that I am doing that I don't see myself? any ideas... anyone?
(but don't base your argument on an inaccuracy, from a source which can not be veryfied either)
But Mr. pythagarus,....this is not an issue of accuracy. You should comprehend before you post. Then you'll be able to avoid strawmen.
The original source IS verified. It IS the original Greek scriptures from which that part of the NT was translated. You can easily google photocopies of the original scriptures, or just go to the holy land where they are kept in the church. If you let the priest touch you in places that make you SCREAM (like you usually do), then he'll let you see the original texts.
(No Proof - ever )
Yes, there is no proof in nature's reality.
(only degrees of certainty)
There is no certainty, much less degrees of it.
There is only rational and irrational.
1) Can anyone rationally explain the creation of space & matter?
2) How about the creation of a supposed OBJECT which they call "THE UNIVERSE"?
If not, then God/Jesus are NOT even an option! They are nothing but fairytales which belong in the garbage.
#2 is very interesting....but the reason why it is impossible eludes even the most sophisticated clowns of religion and mathematics (priests of Big Bang).
No real objects are possible without a backdrop of SPACE around them to give them form!
Keep smiling pythagarus.....now that you are taking your meds, you can get rid of all your religious ideologies....hopefully!
LOL...., thank you fatfist. Goodbye
It is truly sad that you have let your ability to rationalize be taken away from you by the one who would like nothing more than for man to think he (SATAN) dosen't exsist. For this would be his greatest accomplishment........To convince people that GOD is not real
jzc,
What do you mean by the word 'exist'?
(GOD is not real)
real is a synonym for exist.
What does it mean for God not to exist?
Fatfist…I’m ashamed to admit that I have not read your stuff before now. Fact is, reading this hub has scared the crap outta me, not because all that bible crap is false (already knew that), but your ability to express yourself and your ideals are overwhelming. I shall read everything you have written that I can find. Thank you.
Thanks for the comment pylos. Glad to see there are people out there that find these hubs useful. I'm just another regular person on this planet who is trying to use reason to make sense of it all.
proper translation of 1John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is not the Christ? He(Jesus) is antichrist, denieth the Father and the Son. (KJV)
Jesus even tells you so:
Mt 24:5 For many shall come in my name (in the name of Jesus), saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.
That’s still happening to day!
Re 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Jesus said he was the morning star:
morning star: Origin: ME < OE < L, morning star (in ML, Satan),
More proof:
John 19:34 -37 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true,. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, ..scripture saith, 37They shall look on him whom they pierced.
These two words below prove Jesus didn’t fulfill the prophecy: They shall look on him whom they pierced.
John 19:37 Pierced: ekkenteo; to transfix:--pierce.
John 19:34 Pierced: nusso; to prick ("nudge"):--pierce
What most of you didn’t notice above in John 19:34 -37 is that John is proving to you that Jesus wasn’t DEAD! The soldiers with a spear pierced (pricked) his side, and forthwith came there out blood and sweat. What CSI, if Jesus was dead he would not bleed or sweat.
“And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true”
I could go on for days proving Jesus is not the messiah. Just study the bible.
well its about time people start realizing jesus isn't the messiah. fatfist good job exposing the (esti ou) (is not) in 1Jn 2:22. I like your explanation better TOCSIN jesus faked his death on the cross so that scripture MIGHT be fulfilled. But what is more important is that finally people are looking for themselves and the truth be EXPOSED
tocsin,
If you read the fist comment here, aka-dj already tried the strategy of referencing a MILLION quotes saying that Jesus was the Christ. Fine, you can do that. But that is irrelevant to the issue at hand because all it takes is ONE contradiction to logically disprove your million quotes.
And the one contradiction is found in the original Greek scriptures of that era.
Here is the correct English translation of 1Jn 2:22 from the original Greek text:
Who is the liar
if not the one who denies that
Jesus is not the Christ
Do yourself a favor, translate the Greek scripture word for word and see the result you get.
forerunnerjohn,
(But what is more important is that finally people are looking for themselves)
Exactly!
And people should also search the OT and NT to pinpoint EXACTLY WHERE it says in no uncertain terms, that "God created the Universe from nothing".
Guess what? There is no verse anywhere that says that.
The word "create" that is in the English fundamentalist translations of the scripture actually came from the Greek and Hebrew words that meant: to build!
The original scriptures were representative of the general consensus of that time that decreed creation from pre-existing matter, where the term "creation" meant "to build".
It was actually the Christian church fathers in the 2nd century who began to mandate "creation from nothing" to counteract the threat of Gnostic ideas and Greek metaphysics.
Thanks for your comment!
Do yourself a favor and read what I wrote again. As to translate the Greek scripture word for word, where do you think this came from:
John 19:37 Pierced: ekkenteo; to transfix:--pierce.
John 19:34 Pierced: nusso; to prick ("nudge"):--pierce
I assume you don’t understand these two words prove Jesus didn’t fulfill the prophecy: “They shall look on him whom they pierced”. I have translated the Greek and Hebrew scripture word for word.
Read what I wrote again! You might see I am on your side!
Just thought y'all might want to know that even the Qur'an says that Jesus (Isa) was the Messiah born unto Mary (Marium).
Surah 3:45
"When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah)."
Surah 3:55
"And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so I will decide between you concerning that in which you differed."
Surah 3:59-60
"Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was. (This is ) the truth from your Lord, so be not of the disputers."
And no, I am not a follower of Islam. But I do read different Bibles.
And as far as computer translation programs go, they are terrible at grammar. Just type in simple Spanish phrases and you will get a world of nonsense and mis-conjugated verbs.
And your own translation has a double negative and concisely reads 'the liar is one who denies Christ'. It is the same as asking, 'Does not 2 plus 2 equal not four?'. The answer is yes.
Again with a poor translation.
http://www.greekbible.com/index.php
You will find not 'Morning Star', but something more akin to 'splendid/magnificent as "pertaining to" morning'.
Remember, that the morning star in mythology was Venus, the God of Beauty.
I know you are trying to compare it to Isaiah 14:12,
"...O Lucifer, son of the morning!", but that predates Jesus by about 700 years and Lucis is 'light.'
There is a Zeitgeist movie out there that completely confounds such matters so that later in the movie it can sell its own New Age nonsense, that most people do not realize stems from theosophical societies which include in their ranks the likes of Alice Bailey and Helena Blavatsky and Aleister Crowley. Crowley started Thelema and recognized Blavatsky as a sister of A:A:
I truly hope you all look into these things, it will blow your mind what really is out there right now. I should say that I do not ascribe to a religion. I am still trying to figure a lot of stuff out, however, everything keeps pointing toward getting your soul right with the Good Lord.
And as far as John's account goes, the heart does not need to be beating for animals to bleed, humans included. If you have ever gutted fish or bled out a deer when you got home after a trip you would know that the dead animal still bleeds. And no, I am not calling Jesus an animal. If you don't believe me, stab some roadkill that has been sitting there for about even an hour, it will still bleed.
Jesus was a cool dude but Paul was terrible.
"The entire Christian teaching as to what shall be believed, the entire Christian "truth," is idle falsehood and deception; and precisely the opposite of what inspired the Christian movement in the beginning."
Friedrich Nietzsche
You're right tocsin, I misinterpreted what you posted....silly ME!
You got the right idea. If the scriptures are the only evidence which "claim" to prove the divinity of Jesus, then obviously, we have to also present the statements which disprove it as well. All it takes is one contradiction to discount a claim
Thanks!
Adambaum,
(Just thought y'all might want to know that even the Qur'an says that Jesus (Isa) was the Messiah)
I think the Muslims have something to say about that. I would get a direct translation from the original Quran texts, rather than the popular cookie cutter translations out there.
(And your own translation has a double negative and concisely reads 'the liar is one who denies Christ'.....Does not 2 plus 2 equal not four?)
Actually, there are 3 negations in that translation, so it’s not a double negative. You forgot the “denies”.
You cannot use ‘2+2’ because it is tautologous to 4 via the axioms of mathematics, so you are necessarily making a tautology that’s not present in the instant context of that verse in the scriptures.
For example, to initially posit that Jesus = Christ, you are axiomatically necessitating a tautology. There is not an axiom in the scriptures which necessitates this case, for if there was, then it would obviously prove that Jesus was baldly ASSERTED to be Christ for no rational reason whatsoever.
Only Jesus=Jesus and Christ=Christ and ‘2+2’=’2+2’ and '4'='4' can be the case when trying to resolve cross-member equivalency, rather than axiomatically assert it.
We are trying to establish through this scripture whether Jesus and Christ are synonymous, so we cannot assume that they are synonyms to begin with. Just like we cannot assume that '2+2'='4' before mathematics was developed. We would have demonstrate it. And in the case of Jesus, we have to demonstrate it WITHOUT axiomatically assuming it.....understand?
We have to resolve the statement to make that determination.
So here is the correct analogy for your 2+2=4 example:
Who is the liar, (if not) (the one who denies), (that 2+3 is not) 4?
A: The one who denies that 2+3 is not 4, is the liar.
Who is the liar, (if not) (the one who denies), (that Jesus is not) the Christ?
A: The one who denies that Jesus is not the Christ, is the liar. That's what the original Greek text for that verse is saying.
ANTCHRIST PROPHECIES FUFILLED BY JESUS!
1. 1 John 4:3: THE FALSE MESSIAH EXISTED BEFORE THE YEAR AD 96
Fulfilled by Jesus
2. Rev.17: 8: RISES FROM THE ABYSS
The Apostles creed; “He (Jesus) descended into hell; … He rose again from the dead”
AGAIN?
Fulfilled by Jesus
3. Rev. 13:14: DECEIVES THE EARTH BY THE MEANS OF THOSE MIRACLES
THOSE: things not mentioned but easily known
Fulfilled by Jesus
4. Thess. 2:4: SHOWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD
Jesus: “Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.” (John 14:11)
Evidence?
Fulfilled by Jesus
5. Re 13:5: CREATES NEW ORDER IN FORTY AND TWO MONTHS
Jesus preached for forty two months, from this the Christianity was created.
Fulfilled by Jesus
8. Re 3:9: HIS FOLLOWERS SAY THEY ARE JEWS, AND ARE NOT
Gentiles that believe Jesus is the messiah call themselves spiritual Israelites – Jews
Fulfilled by Jesus
9. RE 13:14: HIS IMAGE WITH A WOUND IS WORSHIPPED UNIVERSALLY
An image of a man with a wound (Jesus) is worshipped universally as God.
Fulfilled by Jesus
10. Re 13:15: MANY WHO WOULD NOT WORSHIP THE IMAGE ARE KILLED
One of countless examples:
1171: Jews are arrested and most are executed after refusing to convert and worship the image of Jesus.
Fulfilled by Jesus
11. Rev. 13: 16 -17: CAUSE ALL TO RECEIVE HIS MARK (a symbol) BY THE RIGHT HAND UPON THE FOREHEADS IN HIS NAME… AND THAT NO MAN MIGHT BUY OR SELL, EXCEPT HE THAT HAD THE MARK
Baptize: The MARK of repentance received by Catholics upon their foreheads from the right hand of a priest in Jesus’ name as a symbol of admission into the Catholic Church.
Two of countless examples:
722 AD: Leo III outlawed Judaism. Jews were baptized against their will or killed.
1936 AD: Cardinal Hloud of Poland urged Catholics to boycott Jewish businesses
Fulfilled by Jesus
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTp
The above is from the received texts. You never stated what you use.
try that for an accurate translation and in future if you are going to say that translations are incorrect please site your evidence. I take very very little from you at face value.
Hi brother,
(try that for an accurate translation)
What translation?
You don’t even have the slightest, remotest clue of what you are talking about!!
Please go and RE-READ John 2:22 in the GREEK words which you have referenced in your above link. You will find that those Greek words are no different than what I posted above.
I mean, you DO KNOW Greek, right? Otherwise, what kind of a false Christian are you who is ignorant of the ways of the Bible?
Now read the English translation WORD-FOR-WORD under the Greek words. It says EXACTLY what my hub says!
BTW......you can throw your KJV or any other biased translations in the TRASH where they belong. We are TALKING GREEK HERE, got it?
(I take very very little from you at face value.)
Exactly my point! Take a good look at my face.....it has NO value.
But what HAS value.....is the link you posted – thank you. Read the words in Greek again, before you continue to make a fool out of yourself in public.
hahahaha. john, the one who leaned against jesus, who was a favorite of jesus, wrote one gospel, three epistles and revelations... is going to say jesus is not the christ... was martyred on patmos.
lol... this is a sidesplitter. You really show what your made of. hahahahaha.
It doesn't even make sense in context LOL
you fail
i shall not be back
very funny though as most of your stuff is
(You really show what your made of. )
We agree again, brother! You obviously can't read and you can't comprehend sentences with TRIPLE-NEGATIONS. What else can you say for yourself? Try taking a Grammar 101 course.
You enjoy coming here to showcase your ignorance because no other person will give you the time of day. You are extremely bored with your life and have nothing better to do.....like trying to learn English, or God forbid, learning Greek!
(i shall not be back)
Of course. Your religion is destroyed within its own holy books. It is irrelevant what my hub says.
(very funny though as most of your stuff is)
You've said nothing, dear brother.
Unless you can come here and EXPLAIN what is wrong with any of my hubs,....all you are doing is BELLY-ACHING! Next time take a Tums or a Milk of Magnesia.
P.S. If you wish to learn more about Christianity, and in particular, God.....you are welcome to come here every now and then so I can EDUCATE you!
Fatfist,
It is hilarious what these guys say and then they say that somehow they are in touch with a concept called truth and can repeat it?
Brother said, "john, the one who leaned against jesus, who was a favorite of jesus, wrote one gospel, three epistles and revelations"
He has no clue that the book of John was the last of the Gospels to be written, somewhere around 90-105 C.E., long after any possible remaining disciple had died, that the disciple John was a 1st century peasant, meaning he was illiterate and could not have written "X" for his name, much less an entire Gospel in Greek, a language he did not speak, that no one knows who the real author was of this Gospel but it most certainly was not John, and whoever it was he was not the same author as the author of Revelations.
These are simply the undisputed facts of the historicity of the bible. I don't care if they believe in Jesus, but you would think that believers above all would get the story straight and actual history of their own holy book instead of being duped by an anonymous author titling his word the gospel of John in order to dupe 2nd century morons and not realizing he would still be duping 21st century morons later on.
Truly amazing the lack of information in those heads. Amazing.
(Truly amazing the lack of information in those heads. )
That's why none of these clowns can ever frame an argument to defend their position. They just chase their tails in circles with every contradiction they try to cover up with a lie.
Fatfist - let me say something that you may or may not get annoyed at and respond to with a rabbling of words.... Faith is faith; either you believe in it or you don't. Its not something you need to prove; in fact you shouldnt prove faith, then its not faith - i do not understand you ignorance in this and trying to convince others of your "Truth"- i know, i may not be as smart as you, but at least i can go to sleep at night without bathing in my own ignorance
Random,
When a 4-year-old goes to bed on Christmas Eve night, he is convinced by his faith that Santa will come while he is asleep and leave him gifts.
When a Christian adult goes to bed on Christmas Eve night, he is convinced by his faith that if he dies while asleep God will come and give him the gift of eternal life.
Do you see a connection, here?
Hi Random,
(i do not understand you ignorance in this and trying to convince others of your "Truth")
Judging from your post, I assume you are a theist. If you came here to tell me that you only have FAITH in the Bible/Religion/etc..... then you are being very honest with me.
But you are not being honest when you portray all other theists as having the EXACT SAME position as you on these issues. In fact, every single Christian (or other theist) on this planet has a completely different conception of Jesus & God, and completely different interpretations of the bibles, and completely different conceptions of what it means to be a “believer”, or to have “faith”, “truth” or “reason” for which to base their claims.
In fact, I am willing to bet anything, that if I can get 100 Christians in a room and ask them to answer 20 questions about Christianity, that every single person will give me a completely different answer......not “similar”.....but “completely different”.
(Faith is faith; either you believe in it or you don't.)
This is where you don’t understand what you are talking about. Faith and belief are two completely different concepts. Do you have “faith” in your claims, or do you have “belief”? What is the difference?
1) Belief is related to and rooted within the concept of “truth”. Belief is a VERB; something a person does. It is the acceptance that a statement of proposition (claim, assertion) is true without having any proof within a system of logic. When shown to be true, it ceases to be a belief and automatically becomes a logical truth that is contingent on a set of axioms and an observer’s resolution of its validity. Belief is the psychological state in which an individual personally holds a proposition to be true. Belief is relative and subjective to an individual because every individual is free to choose what to believe as being true to them. Belief is nothing more than a subjective opinion. Example: “Jesus was a man who was crucified”.
2) Unlike belief, faith is disjoint from the concept of “truth”. Faith is a VERB; something a person does – to have faith. Faith is the acceptance of a statement of proposition (claim, assertion) which is contradictory. Such a proposition is impossible to be upgraded to a belief or to a truth. It is a contradictory opinion. This is why any claim of “faith” is completely impossible! Example: “God created space and matter”.
(i can go to sleep at night without bathing in my own ignorance)
Are you sure about that?
I mean, you don’t even understand that every single Christian on the planet has completely different conceptions of Jesus & God than you do.
So who is right and who is wrong?
I’ll let you sleep on that......
as i said, im not gonna read you ramble..... its too boring
yeah bro, u seem just like an angry atheist - that comes across as an ass
Random,
(its too boring)
Of course its boring for the lesser evolved apes who can't even read at a minimum monkey level.
I just hope that not everybody in Ashburn Virginia is like you!
BTW...I'm not an atheist. I guess in your delusional & twisted version of reality there are only theists & atheists, huh?
I am willing to bet you $10,000 that you cannot even tell me what the difference is between the following:
1) theist
2) atheist
3) nontheist
4) nonatheist
5) human being
....and of course you cant...your Pastor has molested your brain. You can't even address the basics which I posed to you.
God bless you
Random,
Aren’t you gonna tell me that you love me?
The reason I ask, is because a few weeks ago there was an escapee from the asylum who was madly in love with me. He claimed to be a “Christian” with special powers. He claimed that he was God and that he created Jesus by merely thinking about Him in his dream. Can you believe that? Does that go against your scriptures by any chance?
When I called him out on this BS and on other crap about Quantum and God, he told me a whole bunch of times that he loved me. I mean, what else could he possibly say when I destroyed his nonsense?
Remember what I told you earlier.....every single Christian on this planet will answer my 20 Questions About Christianity differently. There are over 35,000 recorded religious sects of Christianity. Can you imagine how many other ones are out there which haven’t been recorded? Each and every single Christian on this planet has a completely different story to tell about Jesus.
yes i do love you, not in the normal way you man thing, but i do... your a person,,ur telling me you dont love another person? love simply means cares from - you may think love means something else,, but yes, i love you
i love you too,, except sexually :)
may i add to this.... fatfist seems to obviously be an atheist while random seems to be a Christian .. however, arguements between the two are impossible; Chrisitians have faith, as random said, while atheists have , for lack of a better term, anger. It comes down to who is more stubborn and who is more devoted.. to me, my opinion, i see fatfist as being much more stubborn, but not proving any points. I have to somehow agree with random because of his not trying to argue method...he isnt trying to use anger and force you to believe ,, he seems to be trying to let you know his view only...so my advice everyone ,, is just be nice,,dont worry bout faiths,... so for you FATFIST- stop just chill and move on
random, rickj, and sred.....talking to yourself, huh?
You have no argument, you have nothing to say, and this is what you have been reduced to....talking with your multiple personalities!
i have nothing to say? multiple personalitys? i say stuff and u "refute" it .. last and final thing im gonna say , Do NOT try and get in between a man his religion or faith.. it comes across as wrong and in ur case, annoying and douchey .. so just shut up cause you truly are what makes me glad i have faith - people like you are the dicks of the world, the self servers, the pessimists , NO NOT REALISTS .. so in informal conclusion, go fuck yourself
LOL..Typical theist....turns into a troll when his religion has been DESTROYED!
They must not be treating you well at the psycho ward in the insane asylum. Your Pastor really messed up your brain when he was doing you in the bathroom stalls of your church.
Now that you are confined in the psycho ward, you miss your Pastor's warm touch....so you've invented two bum-buddies (rickj and sred) who can delusionally rub your tush in order to warm up your heart.
Not even an exorcism can help you now!
Hey fatfist, what greek text manuscript did you get your text from?
Millercl,
The ORIGINAL John gospel written in Greek, located in the Orthodox church in the holy land, and digitally scanned and available online.
But here is a link that my very dear Christian friend, brotheryochanan (whom I will be having Christmas dinner with in 23 days) suggested that we use.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTp
It says it right there in black & white, err... I mean, Greek.
I am not sure they have the 'original' manuscript. I say that because I know there is a raging debate in Christendom concerning verse 5:7 and some texts Erasmus used to create his texts and other modern translations.
The link you have doesn't work well but using my amazing computer skills I figured out where the website was and I am curious why the translation they offer does not satisfy your standards? It is hard not to be intellectually honest nowadays... though some people are willfully ignorant... so I feel if there were some issue such as a deliberate mistranslation you claim, then there would be substantial evidence even more widespread than the hubpages.
Also, I am sure you have heard this before but you do not live your life like there is no absolute truth do you? (this is in response to your comments with another poster saying there is no absolute truth) In fact, your claim that there is no absolute truth is in itself an absolute truth. Right?
Is it wrong to deceive people? You say it like it is wrong in your hub, but wouldn't be quite the absolute claim to truth to say something is wrong? hmmmm....?
The inconsistency you accuse Christians of first needs to be substantiated by your own worldview. (Does that make sense fatfist?)
Millercl,
You do seem to ask genuine questions, so I will answer them.
(I am curious why the translation they offer does not satisfy your standards?)
My, Yours, Benny Hinn’s, Einstein’s, etc., standards are subjective. There are nothing more than opinion. Understand?
A human being who lives in reality is able to explain his statements, and without contradictions. Otherwise he should just politely say: “Sorry, but I cannot comment because I don’t understand and thus I have no rational explanation to offer”. Make sense? Is this what you do when you don’t understand?
(if there were some issue such as a deliberate mistranslation you claim.....)
Christians do not wish to talk about this verse in John. So they will never analyze it. It is even purposely mis-translated in all the English versions of the text.
But just look at the original Greek text from which ALL the English translations came from.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTp
Just get yourself a Greek dictionary and translate it word for word.
“Who is the liar, if not the one who denies that Jesus is not the Christ”
All the English translations have purposely left out the last “not” in the sentence.
This is basic stuff. What is it that you are having difficulty with?
(your claim that there is no absolute truth is in itself an absolute truth. Right?)
Wrong. It is NOT my claim. It is an explanation, and a rational one to boot.
Truth is a concept that needs to resolved using a brain, a language, a system of logic (typically classic), and a system of resolution we humans happen to call “proof”. Understand?
Using these tools, we can resolve truth, right?
But, an absolute truth, is a truth that is true for EVERY POSSIBLE CIRCUMSTANCE, for all time.
Well guess what.....there was a time when there was no humans, no brains, no logic, no proof, etc.
Therefore, absolute truth is IMPOSSIBLE. Understand?
You see, truth NECESSARILY requires an observer with a biological brain in order to resolve what is true. A statement of absolute truth is actually a statement of FAITH. It is not truth at all. Why? Because it cannot be resolved and shown to be ‘true’ AND ‘absolute’ (eternal/forever).
So you see.....this is not my claim. This is an OBJECTIVE explanation. It is not based on my opinion. It cannot be refuted because it is rational.
(The inconsistency you accuse Christians of first needs to be substantiated by your own worldview.)
Oh please, Millercl,.....tell me.....what is “my” worldview?
Are you a mind-reader? Can you read my mind over the internet and “know” what I am thinking?
Let’s see if you get this one right.....
I don't think the greek stuff is the issue here, though it is something that does need thorough thinking and consistent explanations. I believe there needs to be consistency because I believe in a consistent God who has made things so. (I know you don't agree, and before you throw the cluster of issues you probably have stored up, hear me out.)
You say truth needs to be resolved with a brain, some logical laws and a system of resolution? Well how do you resolve whether the laws of logic are true or your system of resolutions? Wouldn't these need to be true also? You beg the question here Fatfist.
Also, you define an absolute truth as something that needs to be true for every possible circumstance, for all time. But then you say there is no absolute truth and that it is impossible. Well, is that absolutely true?
Do we need to figure truth out objectively all the time? Is this absolutely true?
You see, you have a myriad of inconsistencies that leave you question begging or contradicting yourself.
I can tell you your worldview is not a Christian worldview. Because I can do so I can also tell you that your worldview is invalid because of said logical inconsistencies. Unless, of course, you are willing to admit you are not logical, then we can see you for your true colors and call you to stop this charade of deception-painting Christians.
Also, you are thinking, "Why do ducks have such large feet?"
To which the answer is: "To stop out fires."
I ask you: Why do elephants have large feet?
To stomp out flaming ducks.
Miller,
(You say truth needs to be resolved with a brain, some logical laws and a system of resolution?)
I say??????
It is irrelevant what I say!
1) Truth is a concept that needs a BRAIN to be conceived. If you disagree, please post 1 truth that doesn't require a brain (this will be good!)
2) Truth can only stem from “cognitive” propositional statements. A proposition is to truth, what viscosity is to a liquid. It is impossible to have one without the other. Disagree? Then post 1 truth that is not based on a statement (this will be good!)
3) As a concept, truth is dependent upon an axiomatic system (rules) to lay the foundation of what it means for a statement to be true.
4) But before a statement can have any meaning of “truth”, an arbitrary system of logic must be used in order to bind the concept of truth, to systemic process of reasoning. There are THOUSANDS of systems of logic: classical, intuitionist, tractatus, fuzzy, quantum, etc. There are all invented by beings with a biological brain!
5) Truth needs to be resolved, otherwise, how can you tell me what is true? Without a way of resolving a statement using the axioms of logic, there is no way to discern truth. We call this activity: proof.
(Well how do you resolve whether the laws of logic are true or your system of resolutions? )
TRUTH is your forte, Miller!
TRUTH is your cup of tea, Miller!
TRUTH is what YOU always refer to, Miller!
Consequently, you should understand that the underlying axiomatic laws of logic are rules. Humans ASSUME them to be true in order to lay a foundation for truth. Be HONEST with me.....you didn’t know this, right? How can you not know this, and yet go around claiming to have “truth” for all sorts of statements you make?
And this is why TRUTH is nothing but a SUBJECTIVE OPINION, since its resolution NECESSARILY depends upon the physically limited 5 senses of a human observer, along with all his BIASES.
So, Miller......every time you quote a statement of proposition as being TRUE, you are giving the audience nothing but your BIASED OPINION on the issue. Got it?
(Wouldn't these need to be true also?)
Humans ASSUME them to be true. That’s why truth is NEVER objective! And that’s why absolute truth is IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!
(You beg the question here Fatfist.)
Not at all. I pointed out where you failed to understand truth.
Here, I can easily show you that you fail to understand truth.....please objectively define the following terms for the audience who is eagerly waiting for you to demonstrate your case:
1) truth
2) absolute
3) absolute truth
4) object
5) concept
These are the terms which MAKE OR BREAK YOUR ARGUMENT. If you can’t define them, then you can just stop your belly-aching because you've said nothing, ok?
(But then you say there is no absolute truth and that it is impossible. Well, is that absolutely true?)
You see, .....you still don’t understand what truth is!
No! What I said NOT “true”, and it certainly is NOT “absolutely true”. Truth is nothing but OPINION. I NEVER claim any truths in any of my hubs.
What I said is a RATIONAL EXPLANATION which explains WHY the idea of “absolute truth” is CONTRADICTORY!!
Do you understand the difference??
The only way to show that a statement or CLAIM, like “absolute truth”, is impossible, is by explaining a contradiction.
That’s why absolute truth is IMPOSSIBLE. And that “absolute truth” is IMPOSSIBLE is NOT a “truth”, much less an “absolute” one. IT IS A RATIONAL EXPLANATION SHOWING IT TO BE A CONTRADICTORY CLAIM!
Truth is always embodied by axiomatic rules and a system of logical resolution. None of my statements use these subjective opinionated systems. My statements are based on explanations only.
Which part didn’t you understand?
(Do we need to figure truth out objectively all the time?)
Truth is ALWAYS subjective OPINION. Read my explanation above.
So there you have it, Miller.......if you cannot objectively define the 5 terms posed to you......then you have said nothing! You are just complaining and belly-aching because I destroyed your Religion and your delusional view of reality.
You ramble on and type out long replies as though what you say is relevant. You said so yourself, you have nothing relevant to say!
Well Fatfist, is it true that truth has a proposition? When did you assess this with your cognitive abilities? You have these assumptions about things like reason, which I agree valid, but you do not have an explanation for them. Telling me how they work does not answer why. Because you cannot answer why, and I can, then you have demonstrated the invalidity of your perspective and you need to either get one that makes sense or admit you are not rational.
Oh yeah, is your rational explanation always true? If it isn't, then there can be absolute truth. You stand on sand Fatfist.
How about this, I will give you 5 years to grow up and when you can cease from contradicting yourself and question begging, then maybe we can have some real meaningful discourse.
But first, answer my question, which I posed to you before. Here, I will make it simple for you: How do you know your reasoning is valid?
C'mon. You can do it.
Here you go Miller, unless you tell the audience what you are talking about, you've said NOTHING.
1) truth
2) absolute
3) absolute truth
Define these terms which destroy your Religion. You are just belly-aching because you finally realized God does not exist.
It must feel worse than when your friends in school told you that Santa doesn't exist.
You've said nothing, Miller.
If you can't tell the audience what truth is, how are you even supposed to explain what God is? See, you are just pissed because you cannot even answer these basic questions.
(replies as though what you say is relevant. )
Of course my reply is irrelevant. And that's EXACTLY what destroys your Religion,....that this TRUTH nonsense you are trying to sell the audience is just YOUR opinion, irrespective of what anybody else says. LOL!
Here you go, Miller....just state ONE objective truth for the audience, and I will PayPay you $10,000 US. I am on the record. Are you up for that?
I mean, truth is your bread & butter, right? Are you able to provide just ONE objective truth??
Let's see how fast you run....and run you will....LOL!
"Truth is always embodied by axiomatic rules and a system of logical resolution."
Is this true in every circumstance?
You do not cease to contradict yourself.
You know, I asked you if your rational explanation of the lack of absolute truth was true for every possible circumstance.
You do not answer it because you know that is a self-refuting "explanation."
You are full of hot air. Just because you took a 100 level philosophy class does not mean you are Sarte, Russel or Popper. C'mon, Fatfist. I asked you first.... LOL
How do you know your reasoning is valid?
("Truth is always embodied by axiomatic rules and a system of logical resolution."
Is this true in every circumstance?)
No! It is not even true. It is an ACTIVITY that humans do whenever they create a system of axioms to embody a newly defined truth concept. Nothing was true prior to the conception of truth.....and certainly prior to biological brains. I know you want to be a Devil's Advocate and just disagree.....but WHAT is your reasoning? Explain yourself.....was there truth before humans? If so, explain how!!
Nice try but......EPIC FAIL on your part!
(I asked you if your rational explanation of the lack of absolute truth was true for every possible circumstance.)
No! I already explained......no truth can be conceived before biological brains. So there is indeed a possible circumstance that refutes absolute truth. Either you can't read and have no cognitive ability....OR.....you are pretending to not understand in order to protect you destroyed Religion...LOL.
EPIC FAIL AGAIN....LOL.
Ha ha! You’re still chasing your tail around in circles.
To Random, mi9ke123, miller, and all the other various aliases.....
If you wish to continue your argument here, then I am kindly asking you to objectively define this formidable term which makes or breaks your argument.
Truth:_____________________
Please fill in the blanks.
Only then will the audience understand what you are talking about whenever you reference this term. Don't go off in tangents like asking me what my favorite color is, or spamming me with trollish comments, ok?
Otherwise you have no argument for 'truth'.
whats love got to do got to do...come on dont be breaking my heart make it run run run
Hi HonestAbe95, Random, mi9ke123,.....you don't need to hide behind many aliases. Why, that would make you "dishonest".
Just tell us what 'truth' is. Is 'it' any different than NOTHING?
Truth:_____________________
Please fill in the blanks. Only then will your psychological torment go away, and you'll be able to have a good night's sleep again.
As you may be an atheist, your hub argues about Jesus specifically. soo.. http://www.jashow.org/Articles/_PDFArchives/apolog may be good for you to read IF you have the attention span to read that long
i especially enjoy the last line, "
Therefore, you can believe—with confidence—that Jesus is the only TRUTH
that really matters"
So my answer Mr.Fatfist, Jesus is Truth
Hi HonestAbe95, Random, mi9ke123.
You said: "Jesus is Truth"
That is nothing but a tautology. All you've said is: X is Truth
But the question that destroys your whole religion still remains.....what is TRUTH?
You don't even know!
i presumed you read by posted link,, if so, THAT is truth.more than a sentence i would say....if u do not agree, which u definatly woulnt, then i dont know what more u want...., and please stop calling me random and mike123, ive been a member longer then those posts
haha,, and just for fun, tautology is using a word to define a word...so by u saying thats tautology ,, your saying Jesus IS the truth..i know you didnt mean it, but i had to just point that out
(Oh yeah, is your rational explanation always true? If it isn't, then there can be absolute truth.)
Millercl,
I was reading through the recent comments and noticed that you seem preoccupied with this idea of truth. But it also seems you are unwilling to either define truth or accept someone else's definition.
See, before two people can have a reasonable exchange they first must make certain they speak the same language. In your language, what is truth and how is truth determined?
HonestAbe,
"THAT is truth.more than a sentence i would say"
You're incoherent, Abe. Define 'truth' so you can talk rationally.
"and please stop calling me random"
You got it, random.....um, I mean, Abe!
"tautology is using a word to define a word"
LOL!
You don't even understand the basics, and yet you wanna come here and talk about reality?
It is IMPOSSIBLE to use a 'word' to actually define a 'word'. Such associations are called SYNONYMS. Go back to school.
If you don't understand the difference between a 'synonym' and a 'definition', it's no wonder that you don't understand complex concepts like tautologies.
Get a friggin' education before you waste any more of my time. I'm gonna start banning your ass pretty soon cause I'm sick & tired of talking to diaper-clad toddlers, like yourself!
Do you enjoy spamming the comments section with your nonsense?
all reigions are circular thinking
Here is a great site dedicated to the fact Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic prophecies:
"all reigions are circular thinking"
Is that right, petronius?
So, can you tell us if there is a God? Yes or No?
Did space & matter get created by a God? Yes or No?
You didn't answer my questions last time.
Great thought , thank you for this very important contribution in a time like this. But first of all what do you make of this glorious spiritual head being of NASA APOLLO 17 MISSION PHOTOGRAPH IMAGE OF PLANET EARTH AFRICA - Cosmic micro wave radiation background of Atlantic ocean current motion complex building heart center temple house body of manhood sex symbol image of perfection Alien creature atmospheric beast in air form central core fluid intelligent system atmosphere of ours? This is the pillar foundation truth of the heart of the Black matter that make up the complex building of the universe .If indeed, the church age refuse to conform into the harmony of the one language order compliant host body of cosmic micro wave nature made idol universal figure seal mark of atmospheric beast , there will be no need to ask them to do so in a moment such as at the 11th hour race decade year 2011 in proper good sense of judgment, even at the cost of causing mental catastrophes with dishonest scribes rewritten words.
ekempi,
Personally, I think that Nostradamus will have the last word on this issue. Sylvia Brown has lost her finesse.
Stating the Greek Quotation it clearly implies that 'The liar denies that Jesus is the Christ'.Or
The liar refuses to admit that Jesus is the Christ ,he is anti-christ.
there is a problem with your hub. first of all oyu are taking the verses out of context. and second jesus is the christ. it says in the book of john when the pharises are asking john who he is he says i am not the christ and later on when he sees jesus a declares behold the lamb of God! also if you continue reading Nathaniel says to Jesus Surely you are the messiah. yet if jesus wasnt te messiah he would have rebuked him and said that he is not but his disciples call him the messiah through out the scriptures and not once does he rebuke him take for instance te samaritan woman at the well. also the jews did not try to stone jesus of wrong doing but because he made himself equal to God saying that he is the son of God. read John 1:1 , Genisis 1:1 and 1 john 1:1
Rose,
You know what, Rose? My financial advisor COMPLETELY AGREES with you!!!!!
I just lost $28,000 from my Asian investments today due to the tsunami in Japan. When I called my financial advisor, he told me it WASN'T TRUE, and that I am taking the interpretation of my account balance OUT OF CONTEXT.
Whew! Thank God my losses are out of context. And here I thought that the numbers in the account balance had an unambiguous and consistent meaning.....stupid ME!!!
Of course numbers are ALSO subject to interpretation.....just like the Bible. Makes total sense dude!!
No you either beleive the bible or you don't...sorry DUDE but all the evidence saying Jesus is the Messiah is screaming in your face but yet you choose not to beleive it. where is your proof where it says EXACTLY in the bible that JESUS IS NOT THE MESSIAH? there is none. its your word against the scriptures. this argument is not with me or with anyone else but with God. Jesus loves you and so do i like a brother.
Rose,
What does BELIEF have to do with reality?
Do you believe your arm exists? What if you lose your belief....what would happen to your poor arm.....would it cease to exist??
LOL, obviously, your primitive “Neanderthal” way of thinking is the hallmark of the lesser-evolved human apes. That's why it fails to even make sense!
"where is your proof where it says EXACTLY in the bible that JESUS IS NOT THE MESSIAH?"
Not only you cannot think.....but you cannot read!
Go back to primary school and learn to read. Then read this hub again along with the references to the ORIGINAL Greek New Testament texts...it's less than a page long...
“its your word against the scriptures”
Epic fail again. It is YOUR word against the ORIGINAL Greek scriptures!!!!!!!
Reading & comprehension is obviously not your forte. Perhaps you should stick to mopping the sticky floors and cleaning the crusty latrines in the Insane Asylum, and leave the academic pursuits for those who can at least read at a minimum “monkey level”.
Thanks for the laughs!
oh haha gee ur welcome! adoy!!!
i pray for you.
Rose,
"i pray for you"
Actually.....that's what my Pastor told me last Sunday after he forced his grubby hand down my pants in the bathroom stall of our church.
What he meant by it...I guess only YOU and HIM will ever know...
if you can please tell me the exact verse in the bible that you are refering to and i will look up the greek version myself. Thank You i will tell you what i find or get back to you soon! :)
please don't be immature about this because your only setting yourself up. haha but thanks for the laughs. who knows i might use those come backs myself lol wow if i didnt know better i would' ve asumed by now that you were some arrogant teenager trying to proove a point haha but thats not you is it? haha okay good night!
"your only setting yourself up. haha"
I sure am, Rose.....whenever my Pastor does me after Sunday Service, he always whispers in my ear that he LOVES gullible fools like me because we are EASY PREY!!
But if you'd like to know more, you can start by putting on your glasses and reading the CONTENTS of this article, instead of JUST THE TITLE. The Greek verse you are looking for is right in front of the screen.....if you can make it past the title that is...
To bad Zecharia Sitchin passed on,
hell,he may have had the answers.
okay thanks.
also i would really appreciate it it if you came and checked out my new hub i think you would enjoy it...also thank you i got those verses that you are refering to in your hub and i am going to check them out for myself and i really do hope that we can see eye to eye one day i mean i hate getting into petty arguments and i'm sure youre a nice person and everything. lol anyways thanks and check out my hub i enjoy talking with you and reading your hubs.
may i say a suggestion? have you ever read the book The Case For Christ? its really good, maybe you will enjoy it.
why do you there isn't a God?bDo you beleive in good and evil? In morality? do you love anything or anyone? what is love?" With out God there is no good or evil, it would only be a matter of opinion as to what good and evil would be. With out a moral law giver, there is no moral law
Rose,
Do you believe that your arm exists?
(With out God there is no good or evil)
RoseAsauresRex,
Listen, I hate to butt in but I have to take exception to the above statement - all that is needed is a scorekeeper. I have the perfect scorekeeper in mind.
He knows if you are sleeping.
He knows if you're aware.
He knows if you've been bad or good,
so be good, for goodness sake!
That's right! St. Nick could keep the bad/naughy scorekeeper and let god pass on to HIS eternal reward - god is, after all, awfully old.
All religions are destroyed when morality is introduced.
Why to this people not killed each other if they do not know your god.
http://www.heritageofafrica.com/trigger/gallery/be
or this people http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2207/2256338278_03f
Were do they get there morality from. If they do not know your bible. To teach them how to act like humans.
So if we burn all the bibles on earth. There would nothing but chaos? Humans would killed everyone, there would be no love, no happiness no compasion.
fatfist- sure i beleive that my arm exists its there isn't it? why do you beleive there isnt a God? why do you answer my question with just another question? do you have a straight forward answer that is all i am looking for.
one more question...Why must you be so repugnant all the time? really its dispicable. and your chilish comments are abominable. why? you write a hub on why you think Jesus isn't the messiah with your supposed proof ( which i have found to be false) and i post a comment on what i beleive and why i think that your hub may have some fault in it, but instead of discussing the comment and discussing our views diplomatically you decide to attack the commenter instead of the actual comment. really its very callow. I understand you may not agree to what i have to say but that still give you no reason at all to act so childish and arrogant. and the fact that i joined you out of my own frustration is pretty sad also. do you know what i like to call people like you? narcissistic, egotistic. now can we start over and discuss this like actual humans with more than just half a sense for arguing? or am i going to have to have to this little Neanderthal some manners? haha c'mon lets get real here. get over yourself and stick to one thing at a time or is that too hard for you?
Rose,
"sure i beleive that my arm exists "
Well there is YOUR problem right there!
Since the existence of your arm is solely based on YOUR BELIEF, then if you happen to go into a coma and lose YOUR BELIEF, then according to YOU....your arm will suddendly CEASE TO EXIST!!
Your reasoning proposes that your arm will VANISH from existence!
Nice Church Logic you got there!!
If you can't even make any sense about the existence of YOUR arm, then what makes you think that you are qualified to talk about God?
You must really think highly of yourself there, buddy.
This is going to be epic.
You ain't seen nothing yet, prometheus.....just watch as Rose's arm vanishes IN and OUT of existence. And all because he chooses to BELIEVE in it, or NOT believe in it.
It's quite breathtaking. I was captivated the first time I saw it!
Rose does morality come from the bible?
Or does it come from human nature?
(just watch as Rose's arm vanishes IN and OUT of existence. And all because he chooses to BELIEVE in it, or NOT believe in it.
It's quite breathtaking. I was captivated the first time I saw it!)
But can Rose bend spoons? You're not really a mentalist unless you can bend spoons. Right, Uri?
Morality comes from the Bible. Human nature is very selfish and really doesn't care about what is right or wrong. Morality started with the Ten Commandments. but if you are an atheist then why would morals matter to you? People who claim to be atheist wouldn't be concerned about morals. They make their own rules, live life with no absolute truths.
Most people think they are good. But if you ask them if they have ever stolen anything, every told a lie (even a little white lie) they most likely have. Morals are basically rules to live by. What happens if you break the rules?
The Bible is absolute truth. Even our laws came from the Bible. The Constitution came from the Bible. Human nature cannot just randomly make up rules and morals because all human can't come to an agreement.
All religions are destroyed once morality is rationally explain. The theist have no rational explanation for it. Instead they give answer like RoseAsauresRex did.
One drives nature out of morality when one says "Love your enemies": for then the natural "Thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thy enemy" in the law (in instinct) has become meaningless then this love of one's neighbor must also find a new basis (as a kind of love of God). Everywhere, God is inserted and utility withdrawn; everywhere the real origin of morality is denied: the veneration of nature, which lies precisely in the recognition of a natural morality, is destroyed at its roots-
Oh boy you used the term "absolute truth" fatfist in going to go crazy. I fear for you life Rose.
prometheus,
"I fear for you life Rose."
Let's first deal with Rose's arm which instantaneously goes in and out of existence in ZERO TIME. We are still waiting for him to tell us how this magic trick occurs. James Randi will give Rose $1 Million if he can show this trick.
Let us leave abstract concepts, like LIFE and GOD, for a future lesson....as they don't EXIST!
Good luck Fatfist but Rose is clearly in her own world. She will not answer anything. She only preaches.
Yep, a typical theist who parrots the party-line without even understanding anything!!
(The Bible is absolute truth)
Rose,
Which bible and which translation do you mean? Surely a good Christian such as yourself knows there are no remaining original texts of the new testament, just copies of copies of copies of copies that have all been altered, some in small ways and some in large ways. There have whole sections added later - the oldest and best texts of Mark end with Chapter 16, verse 8. Everything past that was later addition by some scribe making a hand copy who didn't like the way the original ended.
Hell, even the authors are unknown for the most part. Mark did not write Mark. Luke did not write Luke. Matthew did not write Matthew, and so on.
If you mean the Protestant bible, it did not come into being until the 17th century, so from the time of Jesus until then I guess all the Christians had no absolute truth to follow.
However, to someone who can make an arm exist or not exist simply by belief, and who can bend spoons on national t.v., a lack of a uniform text does not cause a problem with absolute truthiness of assertions.
Why don't you just call down some lightning on all our heads - I dare you - I double dog dare you.
ABSOLUTE TRUTH is a synonym for ABSOLUTE BUNK!!!!
An assertion such as this would really benefit from a few citations, and what are your credentials regarding the translation of koine Greek?
jreuter demands your resume fatfist. Because if you dont have a title your ignorant.
PrometheusKid - There is great morality in the Bible. For Christians the bible gives us "rules to live by". Those are morals that make living with others easier. Other religions have some of the same rules. Atheists challenge those rules because they don’t believe in God in the first place. I think that [people are basically not moral unless it serves their purposes in some way. As Christians, we call it sin. I think people have always come up with some sort of moral code to make it easier to life together. We, as Christians, follow the code given to us by God in order to please, not just ourselves, but God as well. That is why Jesus came -- we couldn't follow those laws in order to please God.
If we adopt subjective morality i.e. someone that is dirt poor justifying stealing because of the postion in life/society... then who is to say then next guy can take his subjective morality to the the next level ( I feel it is right for me to do ____blank_____ because of _____blank_____ going on in my life, or whatever justification they come up with in their mind). So this can elevate to the level of a child molester seeing it ok to have sex with an 8 yr old boy, because in his mind it is ok.
Well Prom, if someone is gonna make such a claim as the one above, I'd say some serious education in biblical Greek should have been undertaken, don't you? I don't require titles, but I do expect serious research to back up serious claims.
Of course, posting a photo with Jesus superimposed over Hitler seriously damages one's credibility already, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. (It perplexes me when someone intentionally provokes and attempts to offend the very group they are trying to persuade.) You do understand, I hope, that tolerance and maturity go a long way in making others see your point of view?
Jreuter,
“and what are your credentials regarding the translation of koine Greek?”
You know what, jreuter......when my Pastor molested me for the very first time, he told me that one should never ask others that which he doesn’t expect to be asked himself. These are wise words to live by....don’t you think?
So using the good intentions of my beloved Pastor, I ask on to you: What are YOUR credentials in the English Language, especially in the instant context of your posts here? I mean.....if you don’t have the SPECIFIC credentials which meet MY subjective expectations and personal tastes, then you have no business using the English language, much less posting here.....RIGHT?
Notice....I am using YOUR reasoning here!
“I'd say some serious education in biblical Greek should have been undertaken, don't you?”
Oh.....this one will be good.....
Please, jreuter.....just post here YOURS or YOUR PASTOR’S or YOUR FAVORITE NOBEL PRIZE WINNER’S serious educational Greek koine translation to English. Be my guest....let’s see what you’ve got!!!!!
“I do expect serious research to back up serious claims.”
You can say that again! So please post what I asked you above.
“posting a photo with Jesus superimposed over Hitler seriously damages one's credibility already,”
Would it make you feel better if I posted a picture of my Pastor with his pants off and me down on my knees??? Because I did manage to get a copy of this pic from my Pastor’s Blackberry before he shared it with his Pastor buddies on the Internet.
It’s all in the Name of Jesus.....don’t you think??
“but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.”
Indeed I am! So please don’t elude the issue any further.....just answer the question I asked you above. Can you handle the heat??
(So this can elevate to the level of a child molester seeing it ok to have sex with an 8 yr old boy, because in his mind it is ok.)
Rose,
You have been brainwashed by your teachers. The bible shows that god ordered mass murders of children - quite a moral victory for god, there.
Instead of slavishly defending the faith, why don't you try and use your natural reasoning abilities to determine if your teachers were right. Why would it be moral for god to kill all the firstborn males in Egypt simply because he was pissed off at their parents?
If you stop and think about it, the entire legend of the old testament makes much more sense as Jewish folklore - legends told by a band of wandering illiterate nomads in order to entertain themselves and make their culture seem relevant.
What you believe as divinely inspired is nothing more than the Jewish version of Grimms Fairy Tales.
Of course, posting a photo with Jesus superimposed over Hitler seriously damages one's credibility already,
jreuter
Good point
(if someone is gonna make such a claim as the one above, I'd say some serious education in biblical Greek should have been undertaken, don't you?)
jreuter,
Let me ask you a question. The story in the book of John in the New Testament - where the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery to Jesus and asked if she should be stoned, and Jesus supposedly said, He who is without sin let him cast the first stone - do you believe that story is genuine? Is that story "gospel" because it is in a gospel? Did the event really happen?
You may be interested to know that this most oft-quoted bible story was not original to the book of John, that it was added later.
“The most ancient authorities lack (John) 7.53—8.11; other authorities add the passage here or after 7.36 or after 21.25... Scholars generally agree that this story was not originally part of the Gospel of John“ – p 1830 Harper Collins Study Bible"
So, I am now wondering if believers who make assertions of faith shouldn't do some serious research into biblical Greek, as well - or at least learn to read English?
Wow Fatfist, you are clearly bitter towards the Christian faith. It was honestly a question I had asked with the intention of garnering an answer, not to infuriate you. My apologies for the terrible actions of your so-called "pastor." I don't blame you for your anger, I'd be angry too.
My intention is purely to give you some perspective without insulting you, because, to be perfectly honest, you're wrong. I'm one of the few Christians here on Hubpages who have actually studied Greek, and so yes, if a jaded atheist starts spewing misinformation about a language he has obviously never studied, I am well within my rights to ask where exactly he acquired such misinformation, wouldn't you agree? I can only imagine your response if I wrote a similar hub that incorrectly maligned atheism! I have enough integrity to not spread lies about your belief system and to at least be willing to engage in a mature dialogue about it, but it is beyond clear that this is not your, nor your little support teams' intentions. God bless fatfist. Since you'd rather argue, yell, and lump all theists into the category of your sick pastor, I'll be leaving.
Oh and AKA, spare me your diatribe. For one, you've clearly adopted the maturity level of an 8-year old, and by using sarcasm, insults, and generally poor argumentation you aren't intimidating anyone, least of all me. And WOW! What a revelation! I'm a seminary student Winston, do you really think you're telling me anything I don't already know? In fact we just discussed this issue a few weeks ago in class. At the risk of seriously wasting my time, I'll give you my opinion, though I'm more than aware that my words will be met with derision and pedantic responses, as you are clearly not interested in understanding a belief system that differs from your own.
First let me say that you'd have a difficult time picking up any Bible today and not seeing a footnote explaining the situation (as I see you've discovered). While I personally believe that yes, this incident did occur (for various reasons), I am of the opinion that the passage should be relegated to a footnote, rather than be included as scripture and have a footnote attached to it. But I think the key phrase you're missing here is "was not originally part of the Gospel of John." That's what is so amazing, we actually know that it was not part of the original, and we know that the great majority of the rest of the Gospel WAS a part of the original. If you could merely suspend your anger and obvious hatred of the Christian faith you'd discover what an amazing document the Bible really is, but, I won't hold my breath.
I've looked over your replies to those whom you disagree with, and it is fully obvious we are just not on the same page concerning how people should communicate with one another. I find it so telling to read through the dialogue between atheists and theists. You and those like you are clearly operating out of an irrational mindset, as your language is, quite honestly, an embarrassment to mature atheists everywhere (and yes, I have some dear friends who are atheists, and it's amazing how much we have learned from each other by discussions based in compassion, understanding, and respect. Take a note). Unfortunately, if you act like this now, I can only assume that the absence of a higher power in your life will just result in more bitterness and anger, as you are fighting a futile battle against your true nature, a nature which can only thrive by recognizing the supremacy, sovereignty, and love of God.
Best of luck, I won't be back. I prefer to build people up, not tear them down, and this has wasted enough of my time already.
Oh, my God, Fatfist. A Seminary student! Who else can make the fact that a biblical gospel had an entire story added by later scribes a reaffirmation how the inerrancy of the rest of the book. Awesome logic, that.
Bow low, earnestly grovel, and chant after me: We are not worthy! We are not worthy!
"I'm one of the few Christians here on Hubpages who have actually studied Greek"
Listen, jreuter.....you fool no one!!!!
This is the FOURTH TIME I am asking you to translate that ORIGINAL GREEK verse to English. You are NOT proficient in English, much less Greek! For if you were, you would understand what this article is saying, rather than just getting your panties in a bind over the title...got it??
You push authority like a drug pusher....but you run with your tail between your legs eluding my question posed to you.
YOU'VE SAID NOTHING, jreuter!!
Winston....we have ourselves a loaded one here who is nothing but a parrot for the party-line. Same old, same old arguments.
At first I was going to give jreuter the benefit of the doubt. But I gave up hope.
Actually, Prometheus.....give jreuter a little benefit....after all, he did feel sorry for me for being molested by my Pastor.
(after all, he did feel sorry for me for being molested by my Pastor.)
Fatfist,
I thought he was your pastor. :-)
Winston....nahhh....Pastors never apologize. Only ignorant gullible followers do :-)
AKA Winston- youre completely twisting the scripture and missinturpreting it. God wasn't "pissed" at the parents. (refering to your previous comment on morality) the bible uses a lot of symbolism and metaphors. it doesnt always straight out say what you expect it to say and unless you have the holy spirit dwelling in you then the bible itself is going to be just another religious text. the blood of a pure lamb on the doors of the hebrews, and the death of the first born son is a small glimpse of what will happen later on in the bible- when jesus the LAMB and the SON of God was slain on the cross.
and if chrstianity was such a lie then all that we've been living for would be for nothing. have you ever read the book by DC Talk called Jesus Freaks? i think you should. its the story of real people and the dangers that they go through just to live for christ. any "sain" person would denounce their faith and turn away but look how these people stick with it and rather die than to deny christ
(God wasn't "pissed" at the parents.)
Rose,
You are absolutely right. God wasn't pissed off at the parents; he was just pissed off at Pharoah, which makes the action even worse. It would be like being upset with President Obama and murdering the firstborn of every America to teach Obama a lesson he won't soon forget!
(it doesnt always straight out say what you expect it to say and unless you have the holy spirit dwelling in you)
Rose,
If you can't understand it without a magic decoder ring, how would you ever know you need a magic decoder ring in the first place? Someone would have to tell you - an authority - right.
And that is Christianity in a nutshell - a bunch of people telling others what they should do because they have the magic decoder ring that open the secrets of the magic book and you don't.
Sounds Harry Potterish to me.
(its the story of real people and the dangers that they go through just to live for christ)
Rose,
Are you really so stupid as to accept these stories of evidence of reality? David Koresch and his followers also went to death for what they believed. Jim Jones and his gang of believers did the same thing. On the other hand, Christians tortured and killed nearly 50,000 people during the Inquisition because of what they believed.
The Catholic Church is still teaching African nations who have monstrously high AIDS deaths that it is a sin to use condoms.
You have no moral high ground, Rose. You have a sick fairy tale about a cruel, useless being who demands human sacrifice to satisfy his immense ego.
No thanks - I will stick to real morality - not the voodoo kind.
Prometheus,
Rose's same-old recycled trite responses are boring me to death.
Can you please post some more pics of MILFs and GILFs to liven up this hub?
Thanks
AKA Winston- the inquisition- it was the spaniards who killed thousands of Christians and protestants because they were not loyal to the catholic faith.
and i guess i am really that stupid that i am willing to beleive in a God that i beleive came down here to earth and was born into poverty and died for his people even the ones who hated him and had him killed and then later rose three days later all this so that his people could one day go to heaven. i guess that i am really that stupid that i would beleive what you call a stupid fairytale strung into 66 books but what i call the greatest love story of all about a king and how he was willing to die for his people. im sure it amazes you that today so many christians are willing to be tortured and killed rather then to deny Christ. why? why do we do it? we love because he first loved us, we die because he died an even more gruesome death than us. we live because of him and for him. you don't need some decoding device you just need to have an open heart and to beleive that you are a sinner and that he died for us. to me christianity isnt just some other religion. its a relationship that i can have with my God - my father, where i can talk with my God, where i know i am not alone and wher i know i am loved with that unconditional, undeserving, neverending, sacraficial, fatherly love. does that make me better than you, no absolutely not and it doesnt make you better than me. i am what i am correct? and you can hate me and every single christian out there just because you beleive that we are a bunch of pathetic brainwashed losers, but at least i have a hope, i have a reason to live and i have something to cling to, i have an everlasting joy and no one can ever take that away from me. not even you. and i am truly sorry that you and fatfist and promethius and who ever else hate christians or think its just some scam, i really am. well nice commenting you all. you know what i beleive and i stand fast in what i beleive. and nothing can get me to beleive otherwise. haha i guess i really am that "Stupid" haha. i hope you a good life. :)
Rose,
"and i am truly sorry that you and fatfist and promethius and who ever else hate christians'
There is NO hatred in any of my hubs, Rose....you cannot cut and paste any hate statements from anywhere in these neck of the woods!!!!
You are using the HATE-CARD excuse as a last desperate feeble-minded attempt to account for the existence of a concept which you don't even understand.
I mean, you cannot even tell the crowd whether your arm exists or not....that speaks VOLUMES right there!
You believe in conceptual Gods, ghosts and goblins because YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ENGLISH LANGUAGE AND GRAMMAR.....it's that simple!
Many people have admirable College Degrees in their resume, but very few of them have really made it past Junior Kindergarten.
(you beleive that we are a bunch of pathetic brainwashed losers)
Rose,
You totally misunderstand my position. I do in fact believe you are a brainwashed human but are capable of escaping that fate by utilizing your native ability to reason instead of memorizing what authority teaches you.
Whether or not you wish to be a pathertic loser is entirely up to you.
Many people have admirable College Degrees in their resume, but very few of them have really made it past Junior Kindergarten.
Fatfist is talking about jreuter. lol
It then describes Jesus as having been sent down by "GOD" to remove the ignorance. Jesus was a teacher confounding the other scribes and teachers, and asserted they were foolish since they tried to understand the world by analysing the law. But ignorance grew angry at this, and nailed Jesus to a tree. It also proceeds to describe how it is knowledge which grants salvation, which constitutes eternal rest, describing ignorance as a nightmare.
What What What, KNOWLEDGE GRANTS SALVATION NOT FAITH.
So maybe Jesus was teaching something very diffrent back then. Maybe Friedrich Nietzsche also realized this.
"The entire Christian teaching as to what shall be believed, the entire Christian "truth," is idle falsehood and deception; and precisely the opposite of what inspired the Christian movement in the beginning."
Friedrich Nietzsche
But then what do I know. I did not even passed Pre school.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/a-beautiful-mind-1
Fatfist the establisment says, he is smart who are we to challenge this great intellectual.
Prometheus.....listen.....anybody can disprove the Big Bang. Actually, my cat disproved the Big Bang just by saying "meow" and nothing else!!
Wanna know why?
Easy....because the Big Bang is not even PROVEN to begin with :-)
But yes, we must agree....anybody who can regurgitate pre-defined tautological mathematical crap, MUST be a genius!
The statement that Jesus was not christ is correct.The two together is like saying "John Does's" Christ.Jesus was a man who willingly gave Christ the use of his body in order to minister people on Earth for three years after he was babtised by John.
Jesus did not start a religion.Jesus did not commit suicide.The teachings of Jesus are not lies.The Churches are a all together different matter.
The subject of messiahs reminds of politics.Presidents are not dictators or messiah's.Congress reminds me of the council of churches with the pope as the messiah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtv1kYm6J-4 Class begins!
Did you even consider a thing call grammar? And did you not know the law of negative negative is a positive? Who is the liar who DENIES THAT... Get real
Did you even consider a thing call grammar? And did you not know the law of negative negative is a positive? Two NOTs give: Who is the liar - the one who DENIES THAT Jesus is the Christ? So there is not fault in the passage - Get real
"the law of negative negative is a positive?"
Is that what your LAWYER told you?
"Get real"
Amen!
The Law of Negative Negative is an Absolute Truth, halleleujah! This is prophecized in scripture, Monty Python Eats Las Vegas 1974, and was fulfilled when Eric Idle tried to get god to "count me in" and god could not count count him in as god is infinite, so it was always Eric plus one, Eric plus one, Eric plus one, Eric plus one... Poor Eric burns today because god could not "count him in".
aka-dj 2 years ago
I see no one has commented as yet. Neither was I but, can't help myself.
Here is an interesting verse I read this morning in the Bible. I thought I'd share it with you. Its Acts 18:28. It speaks for itself, so I'll leave it at that.
Of course there are many more that reinforce the exact opposite you claim through this hub, using just one verse out of 1 John. Ok, catch ya later. Dj.